The Elements That Bond Partners and Communities

Want to strengthen your partnerships and teams? Tune in on Elements of Community as Caitlin and Lucas reveal how shared giving, trust, and redundancy of strengths create unbreakable bonds. They demonstrate how community ties can scale into thriving partnerships, busting myths of independence and submission along the way.

You’ll laugh, reflect and learn practical skills for fortifying your own connections as Caitlin and Lucas unlock the elements that elevate teams with wisdom, fluid leadership, and abundant fun. An inspiring guide for anyone seeking to form deeper, more enduring partnerships and teams. Don’t miss out!


[00:00:00] Hey, everyone. Welcome back. You all have met Caitlin already. We've done an episode together. We had an amazing conversation and she and I have decided we want to have a different version of this conversation. So on our last conversation, we talked about community, of course, because this is the elements of community podcasts and specifically from the perspective of your changing perspective in community.

And it was an awesome conversation. I loved it so much that you're back. In this one, we're going to talk about partnership, partly because Caitlin and Lucas are now business partners.


Yehey! We get talk about that, but in the process of building our partnership both of us have changed a lot. And we get to talk about some of the realizations that have come up from that.


How that sit?

I think so. I like it. Yeah. I think you've introduced me to a [00:01:00] whole new world of community and thinking about people and how the role that they play in our lives very differently. I now see it everywhere. I just watched the fast and furious new movie and the mission impossible new movie, and I'm like, Ooh partnership.

You told me I need to watch the Fast and Furious movie and I haven't but you told me.

Well, the mission impossible one that just came up, it's all about AI and teamwork. And I was like, Oh, Lucas would like this too.

And does have a night and day element that I know you like. So yeah, it'll be good. Anyway, so yeah, it's kind of just now that I've been thinking about community through the lens that you've created for me now, I see it everywhere and. Yeah, it's pretty exciting.

Yes that's what I want. That's what I want for everyone I can't same approach with everyone as I did with you, but that's what I want for everyone.

It's a little intensive. There was a lot of hand holding that had happen. Not literally because we don't [00:02:00] now anywhere near each other.

Our arms are a thousand miles long.

But yeah, I think as we think about community, I tend to think of it as like the broadest range. Like, these are our friends we met in a mastermind, the revolutionaries, and then I found like there were a couple people in the bigger revolutionary circle that I was like, Ooh, that person is interesting.

I want to go deeper with them. And so I kind of pulled my own little conclave together. We call ourselves the Avengers and we got to know each other and you were one of them. And then we started just, building this relationship, and then we kind of created, like, a subset, even within that of partnership, which is even deeper and scarier.

And that was part of the thing that came up is like. The community, it's fine. I don't really expect anything from my community. If I get anything from my community, it's a bonus, but I mostly expect to just kind of give generally and receive generally. And [00:03:00] I'm responsible for whatever I'm going to get from that.

I know that I need to. So if I'm going to reap, and then at the Avenger level, I took more personal responsibility because this is my little baby tribe that I was building and wanting it to work and scheduling calls and introducing people and making it work. But again, it was like giving and I feel like even within that circle, it's still you give with boundaries you give in expectation of reciprocation, there's still a sort of equalness that's expected.

And then at the partner level, I feel like this is where I'm committed kind of regardless of how you show up. Like, if you have a really crappy day, that's when I get to give 200% instead of just 100%, right? And vice versa.

I know that if I have a crappy day, it's fine because you've got my back. And this concept of going [00:04:00] that deep with somebody was really scary given some of my previous experiences with business partnerships and personal partnerships and realizing like, how do you know when you want to bring somebody into the next tighter version of your circle?

When do you call somebody in from the outer community into your inner circle? When do you call somebody from your inner circle into your partnership ring? And we had to wrestle with that a lot.

That's such a fun question.

How about you, what do you think?

What a great description because while I'm out there building the language around community you and I were I mean you more than me, actually, you were building an actual community. You were building a tribe of what you call the Avengers and you pulled me in not the other way around.

Well, we just discovered with human design that's actually just how I'm wired, completely unconscious [00:05:00] confidence, which is like, yeah, your mission on earth is to pull together communities of people who wouldn't otherwise meet. And I was like, Oh, that's interesting. And I did.

Yeah, and it was amazing. It was delightful. I mean truly it was delightful watching you in your glory and I told you so then and I say it regularly now too. How did you know? How did you know to make the Avengers and how did you know that each of the people there were the right fit? How did you trust this weird dude?

That is a good question. That's a totally different question. Okay. So let's talk about Avengers. So bringing people into the first level again, my head's sort of full of human design right now. So for those of you who have no idea what I'm talking about human design. It's like [00:06:00] astrology meets genetics and kind of how you're wired to do life.

And Lucas makes his decisions differently than I make my decisions. So I have to kind of ride an emotional rollercoaster and Lucas just has like a gut check, yes or no. And so as I'm leaning into that, I'm like, how did I know? And I don't, I think it was just like the spark.

So, Marusha and I had built a close relationship and she was the head of revolutionary. So she was an obvious choice and Brandon and I go way back. He's like my little brothers. What?

Long time BFFs.

Yeah. And then Roran and you, just the way you talk and like your brain, the way your brains worked was just so fascinating to me. I'm like, Ooh, I feel like they are equally as weird as I am, get to know them better.

I did not. I am weird.[00:07:00]

So yeah, just completely owning the fact that like. It was just personal preference, like there was just a spark and a chemistry that I'm like, you know what, I want to get to know these people better. And on a meta level, it was like, Ooh, I can see the pentagram. I can see how all of these people connect to all these people and how this is going to be worth, like, these are the people who are willing to go deep.

So you guys had all given to the community or to me, so I think generosity is a 1st step. Actually, yeah, now that I'm thinking about it, there are people in the community where I give, and I just kind of wait and see and I feel like you did this with me also.

So this might be the, what happens when you give a really generous gift to somebody. How do they respond?

So, for context, I had created a very specific approach to working with AI. [00:08:00] And I put it into the group, I gave.

As a general gift invitation.

Anyone could have it, but here's the thing. I did it through Google drive. So they all had to request access, which means I know exactly who actually went and took it. So question number one was who's interested in receiving the gift that I'm giving, right? Cause in elements of community, common value is bidirectional. So you're not in the community if you're not willing to receive gifts. You're not really here if you're not willing to receive. You have to be willing to receive.

Hugs, words of affirmation, praise, food at the table, and that gift. So, to me, the people who [00:09:00] didn't choose to receive that aren't in. They're already not in.

Interesting. So actually the first level was me receiving your gift saying, yes, I want this thing. I see the value of the thing you're bringing to the table. And I want it.

And the second step then is, who tries to reciprocate in any way? Because value is bidirectional. It's the value you receive and the value you give.

Now it's okay with me, and you've pointed this out, it's okay with me if I don't get the benefits of the next gift, of the follow on gift. So if I give my AI document and you take it, now you've received and that means you might be in I'm down,


if I have a gift then people better be willing to receive.

But to your point, at the community level, you have the analogy of the bowl, right? If the bowl is full and I give, I might not get it back directly to me, [00:10:00] but it's gonna overflow and come back to me in some way.

So I might give my gift to Beth and Sam in the same community might be the one who gives a gift back to me, but it's fine as long as we're all hanging out in the same container that this can be a karmic reciprocity, instead of a directional reciprocity.

I haven't shared the bowl on the podcast yet. Let's talk about it.

Okay. You should talk about it.

So to me giving and receiving inside a community should be looked at like a bowl. You just brought it up and we should be pouring into that bowl, but not until it's full. We should just be pouring into that bowl, at the level that we want to receive from the bowl. Now, if you want to receive nothing and you're giving nothing, you're not part of a community.

They're not in the bowl.

You're not in the bowl. We should be pouring into the bowl. And as the bowl fills up and people continue to pour [00:11:00] into the community, gifts and engagement and love and caring and sharing, the bowl will start to overflow. And in this analogy, the bowl overflowing is the good thing. That's what we're going for.

That's when everybody starts to receive value in kind every single time some gift is given into the bowl.

And that plays back like what I said, the karmic giving, because there have been times in my life where I give more than I receive. And the way that I make peace with that is recognizing that I can outgive an individual, but I can't outgive the universe, that everything I'm giving to a single human is a gift I'm giving to the world and the world will always send it back.

Maybe not in the way that I expect it to look, but it's safe to be generous is really, I think, an important principle.

I love that, so you're saying you're in community with the universe?

Of course. Aren't [00:12:00] we all?

Well yeah.

If we're allowing ourselves to receive, evidently, if we're cutting ourselves off.

Now here's an important point. There's a really meaningful difference between taking and receiving. I find, energetically speaking, taking is more expensive than receiving. To the whole.

Say more?

Well, this is just me noticing. But even if, you know, if you want to drink a water out of the bowl, and you sit there and wait for your cup to be filled, people will fill it. And you've received and now it's positive, because everybody who filled your cup, they get the benefit of having given to you.

But when you just dip your cup into the bowl and fill yourself I find that from an energetic perspective and physics doesn't go here, right? From an energetic perspective, the cost is greater than the received value. [00:13:00] So, it costs more than the full cup for you to drink your cup.

Well, physics may not help you, but mathematics would, right? So, if you lose 50% of your, like, your stock, right? You cut into the nest egg, the seed money, the capital, whatever it's not like I need to make 50% again to get back there. Right? You can do the math, right? So what you're talking about is like, you just wait for the dividends to overflow and come to you. Then it's great.

But if you start eating into your seed capital. It's not going to work. But yeah, but I think the distinct, what?

Similar to this, but it's very similar, but in a totally different vein, I've noticed that if my costs are greater than my income in a given month and I go onto my credit card and then my costs are less than my income in a following month, and I try to pay down my credit card. Weirdly, those two never balance out. They never balance out.


[00:14:00] I've noticed is that the carrying cost of excess is always greater than the excess itself. And it's not just interest. It's not just like, Oh, yeah, well, you know, you incurred what 10% interest on $1,000. So it's an extra hundred bucks. No, it's more like it's $2,000.

This is the energetic principle. Like it's just heavy. Yeah. I think the distinction you're making though is between receiving and taking like, receiving is just, I'm in surrender. It will come in the perfect time in the perfect way from the perfect person. And my cup is ready to receive from the bowl.

But taking is like, nope, I don't trust that the universe is going to bring me what I need when I need it from the people at the perfect time. So I'm like, go in and I'm going to grab it for myself and, yeah, it's a totally different energy, which means [00:15:00] that my cup already has to be full.

When you need to drink?

Well, just in general, like, I can't like that desperation and that need and that we teach about this in sales. Like the sale you need is the sale you won't get. Right? You have to come saying, I don't need the sale. I can walk away. I'm abundant. I've got what I need. I'm good.

And I think it's in our best interest to do business together. Right? Very different energy. Then I really need to close this deal because I need this commission check in order to pay my rent today. Like, it's just, it's a totally different vibrational frequency.

And the results are different.

Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah. The other person picks up on it very quickly. I'm like, Oh, you need me. That's not sexy. And we talked about this, right? You were like, I want somebody who wants me, but doesn't need me. Right? As a partner, like that's really [00:16:00] important.

Yeah, cool. So yeah, I'm pouring in, and I watched who received, and then I watched who also then gave. Here's the thing for better or worse, we're not trained to just give and allow for receiving to happen.

Not how we're trained in modern culture. We're not trained to see community the way I see it. But as humans, we love a couple of things. We love follow the leader.


We also love the feeling of abundance. So if somebody's showing up and giving really powerful gifts. It's hard to ignore that, it's hard. It's equally expensive to ignore that. So the people who are choosing not to receive and also choosing not to then reciprocally give.

That's a mouthful.[00:17:00] That's a choice they have to make. That's an energy they have to step into. It's not a default. It's necessarily intentional. Because our default is, oh, he's giving, I'll give too.


How we're wired. Community is our base state.

That's fun. So I'm just thinking like, so you just go around giving gifts, seeing, does anybody accept them? And then when they accept them, how do they respond? This is how you figure out who gets to move into your inner circle.

Well, piece of it. What else was there? Can't be the whole thing. You thought we were weird, right? There was that. So, there was an attraction of sorts, because you like weird people.

I do. I do like weird people, particularly of the nerdy variety. Yeah, I'm thinking through, there is, because in our group, and I've kind of mentioned it, like there's even in our fully adult circle, there's still [00:18:00] the nerds and the jocks, but I love the jocks. They're so cool. I don't think I should go talk to them.

Right. There's still that junior high, like, I don't belong in that click. And I was like, but I do belong with the nerd crowd, like the people who are geeking out over AI and social media and technology and like, the future of the human race, like, Ooh, my people. Right? So yes, there is that, like your personal self identifiers.

That says, Ooh, yeah, we're going to have some fun. Like we'll have things that we can talk about, like, I'm going to enjoy these conversations and I'm sure. I mean, our jocks are lovely and I'm sure that I will enjoy having deep conversations with them at some point in the future but you were my people, like you were the safe ones.

So yeah, that's an interesting, I don't even know how to articulate that. It's just, who do you resonate with? Who lights you up? Like, and you're like, Oh, I like that [00:19:00] person. I want to get to know that person better. I feel safe around that person. That's an interesting thing, that's hard to quantify.

And I don't know how to explain like when you do or don't feel safe, but I think most of us recognize it like in a person's presence versus like, okay, that was fun. Let's talk about the weather. Oh yeah.

Yeah, so, safety came up like four times in there.

Well, yeah, well that was on purpose cause I was recognizing like, oh, when I say like there's a resonant frequency, like that's one of the things that on that base note of the music scale, right? That base note is the safety note.

There's also the electricity of attraction and like, ooh, but it's like you need the harmony of deep resonance. Like I feel safe and I also feel excited [00:20:00] by this person, like the high notes, you know.

I do love the music analogy.

Yeah. So they have to strike a chord with you.

They have to strike a chord. Yeah, not monotonous.

Oh, ah.

We've talked about safety before. We've probably, but I don't actually remember, we've probably even talked about safety in terms of community. So, if I have said it before, then this is a little bit of a repeat, but because I don't remember, probably the audience doesn't either. Here's a power statement.

Abraham Maslow was wrong. Maslow believed that you need to have security before you can seek community. [00:21:00] He was wrong. I don't think that he was wrong for the wrong reasons. I think he was wrong for the right reasons. He was raised in a modern society where it's really hard to see the fact that community is required for security. Here's what I mean by that. As humans, as an animal, we don't know what of the green leafy things that are around us are safe to eat all by ourselves.

It's not genetically encoded. As humans, as an animal, we don't have a magnetic attraction to safe water nearby or a salt lick. It's not genetically encoded. As humans, as an animal, we can't just sleep in the trees. We don't have fur all over our bodies to keep us warm when the temperature drops at night.

We're sort of useless as animals.

As solo animals.

Solo animals.

All of that together means that in order for us to survive, in order for us to [00:22:00] actually have any degree of security at all we must approach our lives in community. We cannot get food without the support of our community, we cannot get water without the support of our community, we cannot get shelter without the support of our community.

And Maslow asserted, wrong, that you must have food, water, and shelter before you can look for community, but we can't have those things without community. We must have community first.

One of the first things that you said in our community that struck my attention. Like, I was like, who is this person? Was he said technology necessarily makes us weaker. And I was like, say what now? And of course it makes sense. Right? But what you're saying is that at some point in the last 50,000 years, we made a commitment to a technology of community.

And we said, [00:23:00] we are all in on this technology and we are going to have dull teeth and lose our nails. And we're going to let go of our fur. And we are going to lose our instincts. Because we are all in on this technology of community and the weakness that we receive as a result of being all in on this technology is worth the cost for us to have interdependence and that's when we became the dominant species on the planet was when we became all in on the community technology. That is interesting.

It's so cool. I love that reframe, well done.

Well, I was just working with one of my life coach clients and she's going through some health issues and whether it's projection or whether it's actually articulated by her boyfriend, but she feels less than her [00:24:00] boyfriend because she is dependent on him financially. And he is independent in her words.

And I was like, are we allowed to be explicit on your podcast? I was like, independence is bullshit. Like there he is not independent. There's no such thing as independence. Unless he is living in like the Northern climates of Canada, growing his own food off the grid, he's not independent. He is dependent on his employer to give him money.

He is dependent on a monetary system. Where that little ones and zeros or paper bill is exchangeable for somebody else's actual value when he goes to a grocery store. So he's dependent on the grocery store to have food available in exchange for the money that he received from his employer. And then unless he's actually generating his own energy, he's going back to a home that somebody else built [00:25:00] on a road that somebody else paved in a car that somebody else made.

And he's flipping a light switch to turn on electricity that somebody else generated. And he's going to cook that food in like a pan that he didn't make, like, this guy is completely dependent on everybody, but because, and this is something we have talked about, I think this was on our last episode. We have turned it into a faceless machine of support.

So you don't recognize the person that you're dependent on with your light switch, the person you're dependent on for your grocery bill. You're a person you're dependent on for your paycheck. Right? Maybe that one that was probably the one people most resonate with. But in general, we've created, we've defaced the infrastructure of support that we all live within.

And so we think that we are independent, but as I remind my children, when the zombie apocalypse hits, the shit hits the fan, you are going to [00:26:00] realize just how dependent you are on all of this ecosystem that humans have built and created together in community. So we've made it so that you forget that you're dependent on community, but every single one of us is like, it is the foundational part of the pyramid.

Yeah, those of us in North Cal don't really have a problem with water. But the people down by you are also dependent for your water.

Oh, yeah. Very much so. Yeah. I like it.

Well done. Yeah, independence is not a thing.

It's not a thing.

And it's not even something we should be seeking, as we said, Maslow was wrong. We don't get food, we don't get water, we don't get shelter. We are not secure alone. And that internal wiring [00:27:00] exists and it's not wrong. And you can't turn it off.

You are not secure. You are not safe. If you don't have six people upon whom you can count on for anything at any time, no matter what, and you know it. So, that safety thing matters a lot.


Yeah, okay. So, strike a chord of interest and safety.

So this is inner circle. I think that's probably enough for bringing people into your inner circle. Then it's just a matter of going hunting together and seeing, do you coordinate well, like, can we bring down a buffalo together or are you the weak link? And you're going to die.

Oh, I love this or, are you so valuable that we don't care we're gonna carry you?

Oh, the drama. Yeah, [00:28:00] that makes sense.

We have stories in society today that need to be forgotten. Like, they actually need to be forgotten. It's time for us to let these stories go. Stories like going out on the ice floe. Maybe not a story you've heard.


Forgotten, it's already gone. Success! The notion that somebody becomes less valuable as they ages in any capacity, in any story, anywhere. It needs to be forgotten. That's not the way humans work. And any culture that has built around that notion is wrong.

Come out here and draw a line in the sand right now. If you believe humans become less valuable as they age, you're wrong. You need to check yourself.

Check your age privilege.

You [00:29:00] have something here broken and you need to fix it. Humans do not become less valuable as they age. They become significantly more valuable as they age. And it becomes more and more apparent as you allow for it.

Bring in the wisdom. Bring in the experience. Bring in the knowledge. Bring in the skills that person has amassed over their life. Bring in the training that they can bring back to you, so that you learn your skills better, faster, deeper, and you can bring those to bear more effectively because of the knowledge and wisdom that person has gained. This is the way humans work.

But I think it's because we don't have a wisdom culture, right? Industrial revolution, it became all about your skills and your ability to produce and your ability to produce does go down.

Farming revolution.

Farming was the first one. Yeah. Right? But even [00:30:00] then, like you could still have the wisdom of seasonality, like. When is the right time to plant, etc. So there can still be wisdom. And like, when you're having to live off nature, but when you're having to go into a factory and just pound out widgets, for 12 hours a day. Right? Your physical capacity does become a defining factor. In whether you're a useful member of society and I feel like for the last 150, 200 years.

We've been desperately trying to turn humans into widgets and our educational system and our economic system. And then we're like, Oh, this widget, no longer widgets, toss it. Like, let's go throw it in a nursing home and never see them together. Let's put all the useless widgets together until they pass away quietly.

And we can sanitarily, like just. Go see them one last time and wave bye, and then walk away. Like we have zero [00:31:00] connection to death as a culture and zero honor for how, what?

Where does meat come from? The grocery store.

Yeah. In little sanitized plastic covered styrofoam packages. Yeah. Which was total side tangent, but yeah. So if we had a wisdom culture that valued it and made it worthy of acquiring, because I have seen old people who are not wise. And they are still trying to dress like they're 20.

And they are still trying to pretend that they can do everything that everybody else can do and have the same sexual drive that everybody else has. And they're like, they don't see the value of being the grandmother or the grandfather. And so they don't step into that role. So yeah, I feel like there's this culture that keeps perpetuating that age is evil and to avoid that, [00:32:00] stay perpetually young, which is, yeah, it's not helpful.

Not helpful. Yes. Okay, so chords. So you have an interest chord, or you have an interest note. And a safety note. Me personally, I look very carefully for a giving note.


Giving note, right? It has to be there. I'm not worried about, so we know the six elements, I'm not worried about purpose. I'm not worried about projects.

As far as I'm concerned, if we have a purpose if we don't have a purpose, we're not even going to be interested in coming together, regardless of the other stuff. Right?

So purpose is what brought the revolutionaries together in the first place?


And then projects is what brings the Avengers together because we get to do projects together?

No. Awesome question. Thank you. No, projects are how you noticed this is you specifically because you did [00:33:00] this. Projects are how you noticed that somebody was playing the right notes for them to be a chord. That's why projects are an element of community and people keep looking at this projects thing and they're like, but why?

Projects happen and I'm like because projects are how we test. It's not about testing, it's how we test. Projects in testing, in trying, in breaking things, projects are how we break things and fix them and make them better.

So projects are having like, I want you on my team and I want you on my team and I want you on my team. Got it.

In a very real sense. Projects are hunting. So it's what you just said. We get together We go hunting. We see how well we do. Did we bring down the buffalo? Do I still trust you with a bow, with a spear, with a blade?

Are you an adult?

Are you an adult? So I'm not worried about purpose or projects because [00:34:00] purpose is probably what brought us together to begin with. And projects are just going to happen. Projects are how we test.

What I worry about is language. Can we get to a common language? Are we willing to, are we interested in it?


Do we want to fight over every little thing? Or are we looking for an opportunity to arrive at consensus and realize consensus is not the same thing as giving up ground, right? So I worry about language. That's a chord for me. I worry a lot about value. I pay a lot of attention to that. It's one of the reasons why I talked about it first.

You worry about safety, I don't. Which is awesome. It's a shared strength in us that I didn't used to have. Right? You brought that strength to us.

Safety awareness.

Not a thing I worry about. I am one and I'm aware of this. I am 100% in the privilege of modern man.[00:35:00] I am in the privilege of modern man. Safety is not something I worry about. Should I maybe probably.

No, I know I'm in the privilege of modern man. I don't worry about safety It's not part of what my psyche has chosen to hold on to from base humanity I don't worry about safety, but you do and you bring that strength to us. And conversely because I don't I bring a strength that is free of that to us. Cool, so it's all about the cord that takes us to avengers. Now, how did you go from avengers to me?

That is quite, yeah. Let's talk about that together because I don't even remember.

Let's be honest, the woman chooses the man, we all know better.

The man just puts out his pretty tail feathers.

That's right.[00:36:00]

All right. So I don't actually remember how we decided to go deeper. I think we did. So we did a one off exchange. Right? You gave your AI system to me and I was like, this is great. Let me reciprocate. Let me do. And we did ted talk evaluations and positioning and we identified some mutual opportunities, like, here's 3 more things that I could give to you and here's 3. More things that you could give to me and we had kind a structure.

I don't think we set it at three, though. We just.

No, that's what I proposed to you in an email. Like, here's the 3 things I can give you and here's the 3 things I'd like back in exchange. Was like the next level of testing. Do you show up? Like, can I actually deliver? And then.

But [00:37:00] at that point, it's not about safety anymore. Now leveling value.

Say more about that cause value is one of the ones that I'm not as familiar with on your framework.

The two that I think most people have a poor language around is heart, philotimo, and value. You have your arms around heart pretty well.

What does that entail?

Heart philotimo the love of community and the love of honor is an open conversation between you and the concept of love inside the community. And so that means when you're there, you're all the way there when you show up for the projects, right? Remember the projects are how we test.

When you show up for the projects, you show up in your best, regardless of what the project is, if it's washing dishes, or if it's going for a hunt, or if it's bringing somebody to age. [00:38:00] All of those are projects, and in every single one of them, you're 100% in, you're 100% there. Part of being 100% there is also noticing when somebody else isn't, and holding them up.

Giving them someone to lean on. Hey, I see that you're not all the way there. What can I do to support you being all the way there, because this is important. This hunt, this coming of age ceremony, this dishwashing. This is important. How can I support you being all the way there? Maybe that's dropping by their house later on that day and dropping off a casserole. Maybe it's giving them a really deep powerful like Earth grounding hug. Maybe it's just the question. How can I help you be 100% here?

Yeah, that 1, I don't do consciously, but you [00:39:00] do. Feedback suggests I do it. Well, I'm conscious.

So that's heart. That's philotimo. That is element 6. Value is giving value. So it's being the one who notices. It's being the one who gives the hug. It's being the one who brings the casserole. And it's receiving. It's being open to somebody bringing the casserole to you because you need it.

Maybe not because you can't afford to make a casserole, but because you've been spending the entire day doing packing and you just haven't had time to make food for your family.

And somebody else showing up and saying, I know you spent all day doing packing and here's a casserole where you could say, Oh no, it's fine. Let your pride get in the way. Oh no, it's fine. I'll make something. I'll go to uber eats. I'll order up. Or you could say, you're wonderful. Thank you for bringing [00:40:00] that. Why don't you come in and eat with us?

You see the difference between receiving and not receiving, and that's value. Value is the value you bring to the community, actively and passively, and the value you receive from the community, actively and passively.

Got it. So we were testing that at the next level.

I mean, we always test that.

I know, but in terms of, like, going from inner circle to partner.

Remember, so people have a hard time with the word testing. You did, actually. You tried to call me out on testing, and we had a conversation about it. If community is security, if community is the most basic security, then we as an animal we must always test our community. We must always. We not test, we have to. It's the most important thing we can do as a biological being. [00:41:00] So, testing community.

Lives depend on this community.

Yeah. Testing community to us is tantamount to having super smelling to a dog. We have to test. Interesting, I've never actually used those words here. Which means this is both an invitation to everyone listening to test. And to do it actively, but do it in a way that is loving.

I was just thinking about, like, the women in my life, especially who have trust issues who don't feel safe and I'm realizing, like. They have a broken system, like their tester is not effective. And you know, the one who just keeps dating abusive men, like over and over.

And you're like, at some point, you're going to figure out that this is not to your benefit. And then they never do.[00:42:00] So it's like, how do we, I'm just really curious and doesn't have to be in this conversation, but I'm really curious. How do we get that? Litmus test, right? So for me, it was my dad, right?

Epitome of safety, strength, masculine peace, like I was like, Oh, do you match up to this or do you not? So it was easy for me to find good men because I already had a model of that in my brain, in my heart, in my DNA, right? So it's interesting to think through, like how does the community that we, like, are born into and experience.

Become like the archetype, the model that we replicate as we grow older. It's just, it's fascinating. Okay. So, sorry. I was a bit of a tangent. You're you can go back to wherever we were.

Fantastic. Now, I think we should talk about that for a second.

This is already a really long podcast.

Yeah. [00:43:00] Listen, my best conversations start after 20 minutes.

Just skip the first 20. It was a warm up lap.

It's a warm up lap. Anybody who's still listening knows that. like, yeah, he's still a little awkward. He hasn't fully warmed up yet. Just stick with him. I know that about myself. My audience knows that about me. I'm not saying anything they don't know at this point.

All right. I like it.

So, what's really cool about that question is if community is as broken worldwide as it seems to me it is, then nobody has that litmus test unless they just happened to get lucky. But community is so core to us as an animal that. Were not to have that be the thing we get lucky.

So we didn't build any additional steps like the [00:44:00] testing that we just talked about, that's about it. Like, is this community the right community for me? Cause if it's not, I got to go find one that is or build one.

But what if there isn't one, or at least what if your experience suggests to you that there isn't one and that there aren't people that you can pull together into your community to make one that's safe for you?

What if that's not possible? You and I know that it is, but what if it's not like the first purpose of this podcast was to tell stories of how community works so that people can see that if you can see it, you can be it. If you hear a few episodes of this podcast, then all of a sudden the world opens up as a possibility. That didn't exist before. I can actually be a safe human? Wait, really? That's a thing?

Yeah. And we have a bunch of humans running around with completely dysregulated nervous systems.

Because they've never been safe. Partly because we've been taught that the first thing you need is food, [00:45:00] water, and shelter. Material things.


Important material things, but material things. Independence, exactly. You don't need independence. You can't have independence. Independence is not a thing. Even the people who are living all the way up in the north. They don't have independence.

In fact, they would probably be the ones who are most likely to admit that they need humans.

They probably are keenly aware of the places that they are dependent. I buy my bullets from.

And oh gosh, I really love it when people come to visit.

Very cool. So you were.

So we were testing. Yeah, and I think it started with me recognizing that you had a need that you wanted to empower women and talk about [00:46:00] menopause in public forums. And I was like, dude, you have an optics problem.

You are a 40 something, a caucasian male talking to women about women in the most polarized and charged gender war of the ages, like you need a female partner. And let me introduce you to my sister.

Yep. I think you're actually replaying the exact convert. Like those were your exact words.

I remember.

Yep, that was it.

Yeah. Cause I was like, so maybe the next level is I recognize that the, you did have a need. I did not recognize that I was going to be the best fit for that need, but I was committed to you and serving you at the highest level. And it's like, yes, you need a partner. Like this is a thing.

And you're like, I don't need a [00:47:00] partner. I was like, yeah, you do. You need a female partner. If this is going to apply, this is what you need. Like prescription here, go get it filled somewhere else.

Go to the pharmacy right now.

Right? Because I'm like, I'm not into all that goddess crap. Like, no, I'm building a business of my own. I had just been burned by a business partner. No interest in partnership whatsoever.

And yet you kept fighting. So what did you see? What was it that you wanted to, like how did you know that you wanted to take this relationship to the next level? Sorry, that was my 8:08 alarm. Speaking of common language, the community that Lucas and I have built.

Common language. That's also value and philotimo.

Okay. So our 8:08 alarm is at 8:08 in the morning and 8:08 at night. Everyone in our community, wherever you are, [00:48:00] whatever your 8:08 is, you stop and you take a moment and you send love and appreciation and abundance to everybody else in the community.

So that was my 8:08 alarm reminding us that we're sending love to all of our ecstatic members. So yeah, that was perfect.

That is perfect.


First, you using your words yourself you were committed to me. So, everyone who's listening right now, if somebody out there is committed to you, be committed back. Now, it might not be in the same way, and this is a perfect example of how my commitment back to you was not in the same way as your commitment to me.

It's okay for your commitment not to be the same. It's okay for somebody to be committed to your say spiritual journey. And for you to commit back to them on their physical [00:49:00] journey. Like you're going to help me achieve enlightenment and I'm going to help you stay in that body.

By paying you money.

Sure by paying you money or by cooking you food or by taking you for walks. So as you said you had decided to be committed to me, and I committed back, differently, at least at first. The second piece, we have an enormous amount of synergy, and your book was wide open, and for better or worse, my book is never wide open.

So I could see our synergy much more clearly than you could. And that's my fault, I know it, but we got there. [00:50:00] And then you know, third, we were both passing all the tests with flying colors..

Yeah, so we did like baby steps. Like I introduced you to my community. You brought me on to podcast, like various things that we did to kind of see how do we play well in each other's playgrounds.

More than just that though I should have said this and didn't. So here I am saying it. It's fun for me to serve you specifically. It's fun for me. When you had asks, when you had requests, it was fun for me to do them. I wasn't just paying in. It was actually pleasurable to pay in.

So going back to that attraction note, like it was fun. Yeah. And I do think fun is important if you're going to have a partnership because. Otherwise, why would you bother?

But that's also personal. I've had people that I did. You [00:51:00] know, the AI work that I've done that I did with you, I've had people I did that for, and it was just work, but doing it with you was fun.

So what does that mean?

Well, it's part of my test. Although this is a test of me, not of you, right? Is this someone for whom my service is actually fun?

Or does it just feel like duty and obligation?

Yeah, I don't need more duty and obligation. If I'm going to do this work anyway, I might as well do it with someone who makes it fun.

Yeah, yeah. Fun is one of my key values. I agree. Yeah. So I would say in rest, like the counter one is our senses of humor, right? Like you get my jokes. You think I'm funny. This is a very important thing for me. If I drop a joke and you just sit there and you stare at me, I'm like, you're an idiot.

Done with you.

Humor is really my [00:52:00] IQ test is really well, IQ and EQ. Yeah like, cause if you were like, you are brilliant, but you're not just intellectually intelligent. Like you have incredible emotional intelligence and as somebody who started with IQ and moved into EQ, like, I recognize that you need both to do life well.

Like, I need somebody who's as smart as I am that can solve problems the way I could. And this is interesting because usually we're told that in a partnership, you should have opposites, right? And I think you and I have discovered, like, in our life partnerships, I don't know about yours, but like, for my husband and I, we are very different, like.

And that difference is really useful. He, I start things, he finishes them. Right? I'm like, let's be excited and spontaneous. And he's like, let's be grounded and have a plan. Like, so I create tempests, he calms storms. Right? So it's just, it's really [00:53:00] useful to have somebody who balances you energetically. But in our partnership, it was like, I could see our polarity. Right? Guy, a worshiper, Christ follower, like, male, female, like, there were polarities, but in terms of like, how we approach business. Like we're both highly strategic, very effective communicators, natural charisma. Like we had almost identical, like CEO qualities that overlapped.

And I remember talking to Marisha, like, Hey, I'm thinking of partnering with Lucas. What do you think? And she's like, well, are your guys strengths complimentary? I'm like, no, they're identical. And I was like, this doesn't make sense. Why would you need another version of yourself? Right? And I was like. Oh, because redundancy helps, right?

Redundancy in all areas of your life. Like, if you have two people who both know how to do the job, well, you know, that job is getting done. Right? So,[00:54:00] as much as I love my husband in all ways, and he takes care of half the business, the half of the business that I'm responsible for, I am exclusively responsible for the marketing, the sales and the delivery are mine.

The operations and finance are hits, right? And we don't try to overlap. We don't try to do each other's work. But I was like, Oh, Lucas actually could do the marketing, could do the sales and could do the fulfillment. And that, like, I had to completely change my thinking around that and recognize that the redundancy was a gift and a strength, not an unnecessary, like, duplication of effort, right?

We get this idea, like too many chiefs, not enough Indians, right? But I'm like, oh, no, how useful would it be to have another chief? Like, if you buy into fluid leadership, right? As a concept if you have a fellow leader, that's.

Still listening, they've bought it, I hope, or at least they're trying to.

[00:55:00] Right. But how often do you see that modeled? Right? Like.


Yeah, you and I can equally throw the baton back and forth to each other in real time on a stage with zero preparation. Like, that's rare. I don't know that I've seen it anywhere else. And we didn't even know this until we got to test it out in front of real humans and recognize, Oh yeah, we can completely improv just lead.

And take the baton when it's right for us to take the time and hand it back when it's right for the other person to take the baton. But that's only possible when that other person has supportive strengths that really mirror the thing that you're the leadership that you're trying to create.

Cool, yeah. You just took it's fun and leveled it way up. So that goes back to security actually. [00:56:00] And what you're saying is that security and leadership actually requires trust in collaboration in that area. And I agree.

Yeah. Like if we're a six and we're hunting, right? I trust you like in my pack. Right? I trust you that if I tell you to go stand there and shoot the thing, when it comes by you, that's different than trusting you to tell me to go stand there and shoot the thing when it comes by. Right?

Like I had to trust you at a different level. I had to trust you as a leader instead of just. A fellow, I was going to use the word playmate, but I realized that Jenny Bellinger might be listening.

Go, now we're gonna have to send this episode to her and the title, when we send it just to her, will be playmate.

Oh, we have a dear friend, [00:57:00] that the business dominatrix. She's fantastic, but she does make our conversations a little bit spicier.

You know what? I'm here for it.

I love it.

I am here for it.

So, yeah, at partnership level, you're trusting the other person. And actually, let me dumble down on this one because growing up in a conservative Christian worldview we were told that women had to submit to their husbands. And it was like, I like that idea in concept, but I know that I am a hella good leader with a really high leadership quotient.

There's no way on earth I am going to submit to somebody who is less of a leader than I am, who has a lower leadership quotient than I have, like that ain't happening. And so, as a result, I only liked guys who were like decades older than me, like for most of my growing up years, and then I found Michael and I was like.

Oh, [00:58:00] here's a peer who is a better leader than I am, like, I trust him to get me through hell and back. Like, I can submit to this man. Right? And it was that leadership ability that allowed me to be a partner because I was willing to surrender and submit and know that it was it's okay to do that. In context. So, yeah, I think that there's something there about.

If you're going to pull in somebody as a partner, and this is what I tell my kids, like, don't marry somebody you like, marry the person that you want to be more like when you get older. Cause you will become that person if you spend the next four decades together. So marry the person that you want to be like when you grow up. I think the same is true of business partnerships. Like assuming we keep working together for several decades, I want to be more like you when I grow up, you know.

When you grow up.

When I grow up, who knows when that'll be.[00:59:00]

I have, so in our relationship, I've changed your language on that stuff. Fluid leadership and submission are not the same thing. I have no interest in submission. I have no interest in you being submitted, or submissive. That's not the way humanity is supposed to work, that's not the way I want my relationships to work, particularly not the ones that I partnership with you, my wife, separately. I don't, I'm not interested in submission.

What I want is fluid leadership. What I want is someone who will take the baton from me, take it out of my hands when they see that they're the right person to take the next step. And that's not submission.

But the reciprocation is like, you also want somebody who's willing to let go of the baton when it's time for you to take it. Well it depends on how we're defining the word. Do [01:00:00] you like surrender better? Who's willing.

Not even surrender. It's trust absence surrender, it's trust above surrender.

Or you could just simply argue that it's trust that enables surrender.

I'm here for that argument, but I'm guessing that's not the way we want to go right now.

Probably not.

In addition my relationship with Jenny and I'm hoping your relationship with Michael doesn't look like surrender. It doesn't look like submission. It looks like fluid. Looks like you are both not just capable leaders, but actually leading all the time. Are actually leading all the time.

Even when one person is in the spotlight and one person is behind the scenes.

Yes, and you both actively want the other person. You want the other person to have the spotlight when it's right. That's not submission.

No, I think that's fair. Yeah, I like [01:01:00] that better.

Yeah. It's not that submission is necessarily a bad word. It's just not the right word for this.

I'll buy it.

Marry someone that you don't have to submit to.

But it's super fun when you get to.

And that little word, that little clip right there is going right to Jenny.

Yeah, I like this.

Wow. Fun. Any more on us leveling up into partners?

Do we want to talk about wings?

Let's save a little bit of fun for the next conversation, maybe.

Okay. Sounds good.

Yeah, cool. Closing three questions. [01:02:00] The first one is in addition to now being able to reach out to me always, to be able to catch you, where is the one best place for people to catch you if they just can't stand another minute without you?

Reach out to us at My email is Caitlin, C A I T L I N, at

Yeah. If there was any one question that I didn't ask but you wish I had, what would that be? Thank you.

Think this is my least favorite question that you asked.

You said that last time. You've done this before. You should be ready for that.

I should, and you're probably going to ask me on the next one too.

And it can't be wings.

Probably how did I heal past partner trauma enough that I was able to say [01:03:00] yes to this partnership fully.


But I don't know that I have a good answer for that.

So then what you're telling me is that's a seed for our next conversation. Wings and healing.

That's, yeah, it's gonna be a good one.


Deep, yeah.

I love it. Fantastic. That's a great question, too. Yeah, you know what? I want to listen now. I don't just want to host. I want to listen. I want to hear it.

Better come up with an answer then, real quick.

Yeah. And thank you. Do you have any parting words?[01:04:00]

I'm just thinking back to when I asked you, why do you want to partner with me? And you're like, you see my best path forward to my best me. When you find that person, you hold on with both hands and that's stuck with me. So when you find that person or those people who see your best self and can help you walk that path, hold on to them with both hands and don't let go.

Yeah, that.

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